411 on equipment needed 2 set up 6/51watt panels

Posted by Shawn Powers on January 04, 2005, 08:27:27 AM

411 on equipment needed 2 set up 6/51watt panels
hello my name is shawn im buying 8/51 watt solar panels..real cheap
Ive been reading all the questings in this sight
trying to learn as much as possible, Im still feeling alittle lost ..before setting thease up [at the correct angle faceing south]what pertections should I have in place ?I have no paper work to fall back on.
what batterys would be best ,can I use my 1700w inverter that I already own?Im looking to start small for now,learning as I go..Im looking to run my small apt and heating cables in my garden for
now..Id like to hear from all of you and I will respond..sorry my spelling my be a little off sometimes ,Im better w/plants than computers.Im an
organic farmer in ct.
 

Posted by Thomas Allen Schmidt on January 05, 2005, 05:25:53 AM

Re: 411 on equipment needed 2 set up 6/51watt panels (Reply #1)
If this is to be a 12 volt nominal system then start by adding up the wattage of all the PV modules and divide by 12. If its 6 X 51 then you have 306 watts. If you 8 X 51 then that would be 408 watts total.
I chose the lesser of the two, 306 watts for, this example of how I would caculate the system.
So, 306 watts divided 12 volts equals 25.5 amps.
Now the NEC and UL together demand the addition of 156% to that amperage when sizing; wires, fuses, disconects, and charge controllers.
So then, 25.5 plus 156% equals 39.78 amps.
A 40 amp charge controller with nothing smaller than #8 awg THHN copper wire and 40 amp disconnects and 40 amp fuses where needed. You can go through all of the temperature rating and conduit fill calculation if you want to, but I feel that the 156% takes care of all that. One thing you may want to do though is consider line loss from wire length. Chances are in a short wire run that 156% will cover that as well.
Now to size the battery bank.
I like to calculate that based on what the needs are and then size the PV array but since you have the PV array I will start there. We know the PV array will put out 25.5 amps at 12 volts, but for how many hours a day will it do this? I am going to say 3.5 hours. Thats what it is where I live on the shortest day of the year Dec. 21.
3.5 times 25.5 equals 90 amp hours a day.
ok, 90 is 20% of what? That would be 450 amp hours at 12 volts of battery storge. Now you will need too round this up when when you start to look at buying batteries. Site conditions have a lot to do with these calculations as well. Your region as well as weather paterns and avialable unshaded sunlight from 8:00 am to 4:00 pm on the PV array will all have a bearing the autonomy of the system.

 

Posted by Shawn Powers on January 05, 2005, 08:09:39 PM

Re: 411 on equipment needed 2 set up 6/51watt panels (Reply #2)
Hello Sunour,
thankyou for all the info..
i have some questions on what your saying.
you said 25.5amps plus 156%=39.78amps  
where is the figure 156 coming from?wouldnt that figure be 90.78? if so that would change the last figure when trying to size the battery bank ...
please dont take this the wrong way im just being cairful w/my figures now .
it sounds like you have panels of your own or you install them,is this correct? what do i put inbetweenthe solar panels and the batteries for protection?you wrote charge controller and fuses?
oh yah..sounds like you live up north at 3.5 hrs of sun light on dec 31,but i know what your saying on the least amount of sunlight for the calculations.what happens when you have 12hrs of sunlight?im ota room .hope 2 hear from u again thk
4 writting me back .do you have a garden?i hope so
im picking up panels 1-6-04 its been a long wait
 

Posted by Thomas Allen Schmidt on January 05, 2005, 08:47:29 PM

Re: 411 on equipment needed 2 set up 6/51watt panels (Reply #3)
Another way of calculating wire size and fuse's and charge controllers is to take the Isc which stands for Impedance short circuited, or the same as amperage short circuited, from the label on back of the PV module. For a 51 watt panel that will probably be around 3.5 for a 12 volt nominal PV module. While you are looking check the voltage on the label as well if its 12 volts nominal the the Vmp or Volts at maximum power (or what I call working voltage) should read some where between 16.5 to 17.5. Whats the brand name?
Getting back to wire size, take that Isc value and add the 156% I mentioned on the previous post.
What that 156% is for, 125% to satisfy the NEC National Electrical Code in addition to 125% to satisfy UL Underwriters Labratories.
125% x 125% = 156%
The reason for this is because they believe that under just the right set of circumstance a PV module will exceed its Isc value. Some of those circumstance are; freezing temperatures while there is a certian kind of cloud that cause a magnifying effect at its edge while there is a short circuit. Very rare, but it could happen and if it does youll want wire big enough to carry those amperages safely.
Getting back the calculations. I will use 3.5 for the example. 3.5 + 156% = 5.46
5.46 x 6 = 32.76
But thats not the end of it calculating this way.
There is derating of the wire for the number of current carrying conductors in a conduit. Also, the wires temperature rating, the ratings of the terminals in the disconect, ambient winter time air temperatures, line loss, etc., etc.. Suffice it to say that after all of that calculating you will still come up with something just under 40 amps as I showed in the previous post.
Go to www.sandia.gov/pv and high light -Publications - then - Codes - and then - John Wiles Code Corner - to learn more about calculating your PV source circuits.  

 

Posted by Roland Funk on January 09, 2005, 01:34:30 AM

Re: 411 on equipment needed 2 set up 6/51watt panels (Reply #4)
Hi Shawn,
after explanation of the wire and breaker/fuses sizing with safty margin there were still some open questions remaining.
If you feel uncomfortable maybe some neighbor or friend is electrician and can give you a hand.
1) dependend on the 1700Watt inverter you can decide the system voltage 12V or 24V (whatever your inverter input requires).
2) Wiring: never mix plus and minus, use differend colors (e.g. black and red).
if 12Volt system combine all your 6 (or 8 ??) plus wires and your minus wires.
Put a 40Amp DC breaker before the 40Amp charge controller and another 40A DC breaker between controller and battery.
3) the charge controller takes care of your battery management and prevents overcharging. There are bunches of them available, for your 51W PV modules (usually 16.xx Volt peak) no expensive MPPT controller is neededand the commonly used Trace C40 is fine.
4) Hours of sunlight:
In morning and afternoon the sun is very low above the horizon and PV power very limited. Alt-E shop (right column) has a table of min/max/average sunlight hours equivalent per state/city in USA. Usually it's 3-5hours of full sunlight equivalent. Don't fortget that there are cloudy and rainy days as well, with very limited output !!
5) Battery bank sizing: use maximum hours * Ampere =AH. the 50Watt modules usually are rated at 3Amp peak power * 6 modules = 18 Amp * 5 hours = 90AH per max day. As the battery bank is worn off when discharging more than 20% use a battery bank with at least 450AH.
6) Because the rated watt of a PV module is a labatory value with cold module, real live output is smaller, there are losses in wire, breaker, controller etc.. so Alt-E info tells that a battery/inverter system has 30% losses.
So your max. daily output will be 12V * 90AH = a little more than 1 KWH a day in summer.
 
 
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