hydro-powered turbine

Posted by Maureen DesRosiers on February 27, 2007, 01:26:48 PM

Re: hydro-powered turbine (Reply #10)
Hi Ken:  Your post had a lot of good information.  Some of which I've already considered, but very helpful thanks.  Lets take the issues you covered:

Energy conservation:  Rest assured this has been considered thoroughly.  I am having a lot of windows, but they will be triple pane.  All our walls will be 8 inches of insulation, as will under the house.  I am seriously considering an in-floor heating system to be heated by a central boiler wood furnace system.  You may be familiar with them. http://www.centralboiler.com/home.html   This may fulfill some other energy needs as well.  I agree about the on-demand propane hot-water system, but a boiler may remove that need.  The propane tank system in the house that is currently there was ordered by my parents who only built the place for a summer house; it has never been designed for long-term living.  Whereas, my house will be.

You asked about shipping propane vs fuel.  The logistics of getting fuel is the issue.  Shipping is prohibitively expensive and only available 5 months a year, especially considering the weight of 50 gal drums.  There are no options for bulk fuel delivery, as there is no way to get that to the property.  The barge is 3 miles from the property with a rough road just one step up from a 4-wheeler capacity.

It might be helpful for you to understand that I was born and raised near this land.  I am a pre-statehood Alaskan who grew up on wood stoves, outhouses and hunting/fishing for food, so this living isn't something that I would be dealing with as a newbee out of the cities, to wilderness living.  But the hydro-electricity is totally new to me.  We already make coffee the old fashioned way, so the coffee maker isn't imperative.  However, I would really like a hair dryer.  Some luxuries are important! ha.

There is a large salmon cannery a few miles from the land and they can fill propane tanks, but they won't fill 20 50/gal drums of stove oil or gasoline.  We can fill our vehicles and some jerry jugs, but not enough to run a house generator for month on end.  So, bringing 100 gal propane tanks to the property is pretty easy towing a little trailer, but bulk fuel is another issue.  Storing a bunch of propane tanks is easier than hauling all the drums.  Interesting concept though because just last month I checked into a bulk fuel delivery by a landing craft to the beach and I got a big, no way for a bunch of reasons I won't go into.

So, it sounds like batteries are going to be part of my life by the way you describe things.  I am quite interested in the top of the line batteries, but the well of money doesn't go too terribly deep, which is why I'm so interested in the hydro.  I think I'm agreeing with you that working towards a hydro system and diesel genset combination with batteries and an inverter may be the way to go, because I think I can reduce my diesel need enough to get from summer to summer without too much trouble. The house will be heated by wood, there will be a wood cook stove as well as propane range, the fridge needs to be on 24/7, so that will be propane, but a chest freezer only needs about 3 hrs a day to keep frozen.  During the daylight hours, I will be using virtually no power, but unfortunately in the winter daylight is only about 4 hrs a day and I hate fuel lamps for lighting, but battery system lights would be fine.  I would like to have a satellite compute system and television, but again, that will be turned on a nominal amount of time.

On your question about the 300 ft vs the 200 ft.  We have the water tank at about 200 ft, but the water source CAN be accessed at apx 300 ft uphill.  We could move the tank further up, but its just more pipe.

If you would be interested, I can give you my email address and I could send photos of the property and water source.

Maureen


 

Posted by Ken Hall on March 01, 2007, 02:05:34 AM

Re: hydro-powered turbine (Reply #11)
Maureen:

Sorry it took a while to get back to you. I’ve been otherwise occupied.

I have assuming separate systems (completely new pipe for the hydro) since I read your first post. My reading of your “we can move the tank…”  indicates to me, that you still have some connection between them.

The two systems need to be separate. The flow/pressure changes that a domestic water system puts on a hydro system are not beneficial for the turbine, and can be catastrophic to the piping. 400 feet of 2 inch pipe, would contain almost 2200lbs of moving water. If you change the volume rapidly, pressures really spike.

It is not even a good idea to hook the new pipe to the same tank. You have approximately 1-2 days storage for household use. It would also be the only “limited” fire protection that you have mentioned so far. If the inlet pipe to the tank gets blocked or make-up water fails for any other reason, the hydro would empty it in 10 minutes.

I would recommend installing the hydro inlet in the stream below your tanks inlet. If forced to develop more head (not very likely), I would relocate the tanks inlet to a point above the hydro inlet, to give priority to the domestic water. 
If a settling tank or basin is needed for the hydro, it would have to be much larger than the current tank.
Ken
 

Posted by David M on March 07, 2007, 05:27:20 PM

Re: hydro-powered turbine (Reply #12)
Ken, Maureen,

I happened upon your discussion, and am intrigued by the great questions and discussions. I had a few thoughts I didn't see addressed, although they may already be obvious.

The conservation mentioned, ie insulation, is great, but it has little effect on your hydro system since the heating system is wood fired. For the hydro system, the lighting and appliances are more important. Presumably you are using high efficiency flourscent lights and ultra-high efficiency appliances?

Also, since batteries are an issue, I wonder if water storage at the higher elevations is possible. This would have to be significant size, but if the terrain and soils allow, a bulldozer can make a pretty nice pond pretty cheaply. This could eliminate a significant battery need.

Also, you mention using propane for hot water heating. This could fairly easily be integrated into the wood heat or waste heat from the generator, saving a lot of propane.

Thanks,

Max
 

Posted by David M on March 07, 2007, 05:36:31 PM

Re: hydro-powered turbine (Reply #13)
One other point...presumably your refrigerator and freezer will use a significant amount of propane, or electricity (I'm a bit confused about whether you are using propane or electricity for this purpose). Either way, at your lattitude, a refrigerator/freezer built into the cold ground should be able to supply all your refrigeration needs with no use of power.

Max
 

Posted by Steve Bird on March 10, 2007, 04:38:17 PM

Re: hydro-powered turbine (Reply #14)
Very, Very interesting reading on the hydo power. I need to find a few suppliers for either Pelton or Turgo water wheels for some tinkering when the ice leaves the stream near my home. Any input would be appreciated.
            Thanks;
                    Steve
 
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