What will replace oil wells-?

Posted by Thomas Dixon on November 11, 2008, 09:53:11 AM

Re: What will replace oil wells-? (Reply #5)
I congratulate you on your energy use. You do set a great example of what could be done on a local level. But what I am talking about is much bigger.

Actually solar panels are not doable. They can produce localized energy for small applications but solar panels can never power factories. Factories and other large energy consumers will have to either get their energy from other sources or shut down. Either we find that big power house to run the industrial sector or we shrink our economy to accommodate less and less energy.

I think there is a better way.
 

Posted by Ken Hall on November 11, 2008, 02:51:48 PM

Re: What will replace oil wells-? (Reply #6)
“there is only one other source of energy that can replace oil and that is geothermal. That is why I have presented this energy machine. There is no other way.”

I think your problem is that you are looking for a single source replacement for oil. I do not believe that exists. The solution will be multifaceted. Many different sources adding up to produce the final result. While there Solar cannot keep a factory running 24 hours a day, solar energy produced and used during the day can offset oil use or save water for hydro, so that energy can be used to keep that factory running during the hours of darkness.

The biggest problem with geothermal is that much of that resource is too deep in the earth to do us any good. It can be either prohibitively expensive to reach, or in many cases it is just impossible with today’s drilling technology.

Production of geothermal steam has many problems associated with it. It leaches minerals from the earth, including many sulfides, arsenic, and other toxics, which need to be removed. Especially, if steam/water vapor from a cooling tower is going to be released to atmosphere.  This will be even more important if you ramp up the amount of geothermal production.

It takes vast quantities of water, and it is preferable that it is not saltwater. Maintaining a turbine that uses geothermal steam is labor intensive enough, without increasing the salt content of the steam. The existing corrosion problems associated with geothermal steam would be much worse using heated salt water.

To keep the Geysers resource running, they have been catching rainwater runoff and reinjecting it since the late 70’s. They pump the local streams when they reach a certain flow level. They are pumping treated sewer water from up to 40 miles away (and uphill over 3,000 feet) to maximize steam regeneration. (And they do not subtract the vast quantities of electricity used for pumping, from their net production figures. That power use shows up as a customer)

One of the world’s best geothermal resources is Yellowstone National Park.  Would you care to lay a wager on the odds of building power plants there ?

People that have not been around it, often view Geothermal as a green resource.  But there are just as many ecological impacts to be mitigated (and you could argue more) as a fossil fuel power plant.
 

Posted by Thomas Dixon on November 11, 2008, 03:31:07 PM

Re: What will replace oil wells-? (Reply #7)
I agree that geothermal is not a clean energy source. I also agree that we need to use all the available energy sources that are out there if we are to continue to grow our economy and feed our children.

But I disagree that the problems you outlined make this a no go proposition. Every objection that you have listed so far can be overcome. There are literally thousands of miles of geothermal rifts on the ocean floor where magma is being pushed to the surface. There is no need to drill for it. The environment is unsuitable for humans but machines can do all the work while we enjoy the benefits. Frankly I don’t see an alternative. The sear magnitude of the energy we need to sustain our economy is just too big and to sit back and think wind and solar will save the day is just being naive at best.

I believe that once you realize the economy of scale that will be needed to replace fossil fuels you too will start thinking about geothermal as well. Once you get to that point we can discuss technical ways to make this work. I don’t hold any ownership rights to this concept or the drawing provided. I am putting this out there for anyone to use and improve.
 

Posted by Ken Hall on November 12, 2008, 02:32:04 AM

Re: What will replace oil wells-? (Reply #8)
Thomas:

I never said that geothermal is a no go. All I said was your idea of it won’t work. While most of the technical problems might be overcome, it is not worthwhile to pursue them. The cost of such a project would be prohibitive. It would drive up electric rates to a level never seen in this country. We just are recovering from $5.00 a gallon gas, I do not want to see $5.00 a kilowatt electricity.

While there are thousands of kilometers of mid ocean ridge, most of it is not that hot.  So, you will either have to drill for the heat.  Or, you are going to have to cap off a bunch of hydrothermal vents.
http://www.ocean.udel.edu/deepsea/level-2/geology/vents.html
Capping off those will destroy a very fascinating ecosystem.

“you too will start thinking about geothermal as well.”

I don’t need to start thinking geothermal. I am one of the few people you will ever run into that can say that I (along with many others) have built geothermal power plants. Over 400MW worth. So, I think I’ve got a pretty good handle on what we have been able to do with it, and what we can’t.

Ken
 

Posted by John D on November 12, 2008, 09:34:45 AM

Re: What will replace oil wells-? (Reply #9)
People tend to think that they need 1000kwh per month to power their homes.  And, of course, a large and costly PV array would be needed to provide that much power.  There is a perception that to make do with a smaller system would be a step backward, and would result in a less-comfortable lifestyle. 

In reality, most of those who currently use 1000kwh per month could easily get by on half that amount if they would make a few energy-efficiency improvements.  After a modest investment, the homeowner would not experence any adverse quality-of-life issues.  It would actually be a quality of life improvement, since the homeowners electric bill would go down. 

With this in mind, suddenly the cost of a PV system is cut in half, since the size of the system required is cut in half. 

If this can be done in the home, I see no reason why it couldn't be done in industry.  We could easily have a 50% reduction of fossil-fuel use across the board, which would have a tremendous impact on the environment and the economy.

If our government is willing to bail out irresponsible financial institutions, and auto companies who've made bad decisions, perhaps they could boost the incentives for going green, improving the financial outlook of such an undertaking. 
 
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