First RE System is Planned

Posted by Eric F on July 15, 2008, 03:59:42 PM

Re: First RE System is Planned (Reply #5)
Hi Eric,
In checking the NEC 2008 book, Table 8 Conductor Properties. Your suggested #2 wire in copper is .201 ohms/kFT and in Aluminum is .313 ohms/kFT.
The issue here is what is my wattage loss through this long cable run and what is the final voltage drop at the end of the cable run?  Ohms law and basic power formulas will give you these answers.
 
I squared * R = Power loss
and
E = I * R ,  for the voltage drop

Given: max amperage (I = 18.75 A)
    Max voltage (E = 48 vDC)
    Cable Ohms  #2 Copper@ .201 ohms per 1000 feet * 375 FT
                #2 Alu@ .313 ohms per 1000 FT * 375 FT
      Note: This being a closed loop DC circuit I must consider the cable run in both directions thus doubling my ohms total for the cable.
#2 copper ohms  (R = .15075 ohms total)
#2 aluminum ohms (R = .23475 ohms total)

Power Loss
I sq * R = 18.75sq * .15075 = 53 watts on copper
I sq * R = 18.75sq * .23475 = 82 watts on aluminum

Voltage Drop
E = I * R = 18.75 amps * .15075 ohms = 2.8 volts on Copper
E = I * R = 18.75 amps * .23475 ohms = 4.4 volts on Alu

Are these numbers tollerable??? Maybe!
Will your cable run be melting the snow between your wind tower and the garage with 53 watts? NO.
Will your wind mill be usually be outputting its maximum 900 watts and therefore 18.75 amps? No, so these numbers are based on a theoretical maximum which may not be achieved.
Will your batteries fail to fully charge? Yes, Your batteries really want 2.1v per cell ( 12.6 volts for a 6 cell battery). So hopefully the wind mill outputs just over 48 volts and the ocassions when your voltage drop over the wire is above 1 volt it will have little overall effect on your final delivered wattage to the garage.

Now increasing your cable size to 3/0 will give you a maximum voltage drop of 1.12 volts and only 21 watts of power loss.  Better? YES, but at what cost??? Price of #2 copper vs 3/0 copper.
MikeH.




Mike,

I have only one quibble with your numbers.  My chart for #2AWG says the max ohms are .159 and the weight per 1000 feet is 201#.  Did you jump columns?

In any case the voltage drop using #2 is still 2.23V.

Here's the really funny thing.  If you download the Southwest Windpower Manual for the Whisper 100 you find they say you can go many more feet with only # 6 or even #8 wire.

http://store.altenergystore.com/mmsolar/others/REVC-3-CMLT-1033-01-Whisper_100_Owner%27sManual.pdf

See Page 9 of 42.

I do not understand.  Can anyone explain this (what appears to be a) discrepancy?

Eric F.
 

Posted by John B on July 15, 2008, 05:39:00 PM

Re: First RE System is Planned (Reply #6)
Here's the really funny thing.  If you download the Southwest Windpower Manual for the Whisper 100 you find they say you can go many more feet with only # 6 or even #8 wire.

http://store.altenergystore.com/mmsolar/others/REVC-3-CMLT-1033-01-Whisper_100_Owner%27sManual.pdf

See Page 9 of 42.

I do not understand.  Can anyone explain this (what appears to be a) discrepancy?

Eric F.

Voltage drop calculations are really only applicable in situations where you have fixed voltage, such as 120V in a panel box or the output from your charge controller.

Lets say for example that the output from your turbine is 50V. Any loss at all from that, or even 50V itself, would not be able to charge a 48V system.

Now lets say that you can crank up the output voltage of the turbine up to 80V. Here you have a situation where even a 10% drop in voltage is not going to prevent the turbine from charging the batteries. What you will have is power losses in the wire because of the resistance of the wire. The less ohms per foot, and hence the larger AWG number and more expensive the wire, the less losses you will incur.

In pv systems, the voltage drop has much greater relevance for the distance between the charge controller and the battery, and is not that important between the source and the charge controller. Remember in PV systems mppt charge controllers actually vary the incoming voltage along the I/V curve to maximise the power gain.

I would imagine that the Whisper Controller acts in a similar manner to a MPPT charge controller for the wind turbine to give you a bit more flexibility in keeping the costs down.
 

Posted by David A on July 16, 2008, 12:17:27 AM

Re: First RE System is Planned (Reply #7)
hi eric f.

 it's great to see that you are trying to nail down these details before just diving in with your wallet. you are sure to find something you missed along the way. but that is the fun of the learning.

 i see the wire run problem as a mixed bowl of fruit. we are attempting to use our dc wire tables for the turbine run. this turbine feed comes all the way to your power room with "three phase wild ac current" and then is sent through a bridge rectifier and changed to ripple dc and then right to the battery bank. we may well see 150vac @ 150hz comming from the turbine...a word of caution here about trying to measure it with a regular multimeter. don't. it took me three meters to learn that one. also you will find that your batteries love that dc ripple charge current until they get to the very top of their charge, then you have to start dumping. the c40 should work out nice for that. and the suggested wire gauge per manual is the way to go.

 for some great wind advice check out paul gipe and the guru of wind hugh piggot.

all the best, dave

also sometimes it's easier to beg for forgivness than to jump through all those permiting hoops. my local inspector was by on another matter and happened to notice my set up. and all he said is that looks nice. your ahj may not feel the same. in any case be sure to follow at least the fall rule. that if it comes down it lands on your property. build strong!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 12:36:26 AM by david ames »
 

Posted by Eric F on July 16, 2008, 10:36:46 AM

Re: First RE System is Planned (Reply #8)
My thanks to David and John for their explanations.

Onward to my next area of questions:

Do I need separate charge controllers for the PV and the wind turbine?  Do they both connect to the battery bank in the same way?  Must there be separate battery banks?

Thanks for any help, again.
Eric
 

Posted by John B on July 16, 2008, 09:40:59 PM

Re: First RE System is Planned (Reply #9)
Eric,

I believe that the "Whisper Controller" is a charge controller of sorts. The Whisper Controller and the pv charge controller should be able to connect to the same battery bank if they are the same voltage. Charge controllers for wind turbines usually have a "diversion load" to dump any excess current once the batteries are fully charged since spinning blades in high winds do not turn "off" as easily as pv panels. Heating elements in water heaters make good diversion loads.
 
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